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Post by Wayne Hall on Nov 25, 2023 21:24:54 GMT -5
Tudor Florescu BA in in Political Science, University of Bucharest , Faculty of Political Science Updated Jul 23
Most European countries did not have colonies. It’s a very commonly repeated trope that Europe equals colonialism just because a few of its past empires, mostly those from Western Europe, engaged in maritime exploration and colonisation of many territories across the world, especially since the Age of Discovery.
Modern European countries that had a history of colonialism
But strictly speaking only about 14 European countries had colonies and a few of them were rather tiny.
This is the official list of countries that had colonies: Belgium, Denmark, France, Great Britain, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Russia, Spain, Sweden, Malta, Germany, Italy, Austria.
And even among these, the inclusion or exclusion of some countries is debatable:
Austria made an attempt at colonising some tiny islands, Nicobar Islands, in the Bay of Bengal, but they failed. It also depends how you delineate which were the political entities that were agents of colonisation. Because if you take the modern state of Austria as a unit, there’s not much to associate with colonialism. But if you consider them as part of the Germanic Holy Roman Empire that at some point controlled parts of what we call today the Netherlands, then you could say they were involved in colonialism through the establishment of the Ostend Company that traded with the East and West Indies.
Scotland tried to set up colonies in Nova Scotia, but eventually failed. Today Scotland is part of the territory of modern Great Britain, so it’s counted in the list under that title.
Poland, not marked as a colonial power in this very simplified map, once included a medieval fiefdom called Livonia, which made some attempts at establishing colonies during the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth, in the middle of the 17th century.
Ireland was colonised by British settlers during the 16th-17th centuries period known as the Plantations and later some Irish people were sent to the American colonies and used for hard labour, as they were seen as socially undesirable savages.
So there are some nuances that such a simplified list and map cannot describe without digging through the whole history of each case. And as I previously mentioned, the map has morphed multiple times since these states had any involvement with colonialism. Modern Austria is a tiny state compared to its grand history at the core of the Germanic Holy Roman Empire and later the Hapsburgic empire. Portugal, a once fearsome colonial power, is today a much more modest modern state that you’d be hard-pressed to claim it owes its current “wealth” to its colonial past.
Greece did set up colonies during ancient times, both on the coast of the Black Sea and the Mediterranean Sea. However, this post only addresses this common claim made about “European” participation in colonialism since the Age of Discovery. (The inverted commas are Tudor Florescu's. I include Greece in Europe. W.H.)
There are about 30 modern European countries that never had colonies: Iceland, Ukraine, Poland, Romania, Czechia, Greece, Hungary, Belarus, Serbia, Switzerland, Bulgaria, Finland, Slovakia, Ireland, Croatia, Moldova, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Albania, Lithuania, North Macedonia, Slovenia, Latvia, Estonia, Montenegro, Luxembourg, Andorra, Monaco, Liechtenstein, San Marino, the Holy See.
So when you talk about payback for colonialism, you need to be very specific about which countries, which historical agents (explorers, royals, aristocrats, merchants) and what were the exact effects of their actions. And who benefited exactly and how is this measured? Because I don’t imagine that some peasants from Italy have seen any benefits from Italy having two colonies in Africa for less than 10 years, in the early half of the 20th century. So let’s not apply this kind of collective responsibility for the actions of a few and very specific historical figures, in the name of which tens of millions of descendants of people who have never seen any benefit from those actions should be punished.
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Post by Wayne Hall on Nov 25, 2023 22:27:33 GMT -5
Basil
Studied Political Science (college major) (Graduated 2000)
I have a few questions for you. Why didn’t you include Muslims who colonized in the past such as the Arabs and Ottoman Turks? Why didn’t you include the Japanese, Mongols, and the Chinese in the East? Also, why are you grouping all countries of Europe as one? Why did you only bring up the Europeans? Two, how do you think this would help our world which is facing global climate and economic challenges, don’t you think it could possibly hurt your relatives?
Let’s start with Arab Muslims and Ottoman Turks. How many times do Arab Muslims say that Turkey should be colonized and invaded as payback for colonialism? They don’t say that. The reason that is said by people like you is because of something called sectarianism or using the cover of religious hatred while using the language of the old socialists who talked about imperialism, though you refused to accept the ideas of the Arab and Turkish socialists who called for equality for all. Remember, before colonialism can happen, you have to believe in the others as inferior. Also, didn’t the Arab Empires conquer Persia and North Africa? Does this mean Egyptians and people from the Maghreb should be able to invade Saudi Arabia? Anyway, if they attempted to do so, the Saudis would shoot them literally, and you know this. They’ve done this to Yemenis. Remember, they invaded Yemen and bombed it, and when Yemenis have recently tried to cross in, they were shot. A lot of black Africans were enslaved in Arabia, so should Saudi Arabia be invaded by black Africans as payback for something their great-great-great grandfathers did? Does that even make sense? Using your logic, if an Iranian could attack an Arab in payback for what happened in 648 A.D. to Persians. Again, you don’t say that Turkey should be invaded and colonized because they are Muslims, and you dislike Europeans who are Christians and atheists, and you downplay what the Ottoman Turks did in the Middle East and North Africa, though some people lost their great-grandfathers in Yemen fighting a stupid war for the Ottoman Empire.
Many East Asian countries had empires in history. The Japanese had an empire. So should Japan be invaded in payback? And who should invade? Only the countries that were invaded by Japan? By Koreans, Chinese, Filipons? Who is eligible? And allowed based on your thinking? What about the Mongolians? Mongolians sacked Baghdad and killed so many Syrians? Why not invade Mongolia? Why only Europe? China has had a colonial history in its past. Who has the right to invade as payback in your eyes? Every Asian? The Vietnamese? How does this work exactly based on your logic?
Your post assumes that all Europeans have the same colonizing history. Did Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Poland, Austria have a bunch of colonies? No. However, people still want to go there. How many people are saying “I don’t think one should invade Denmark, as they never invaded the Middle East or North Africa?” Noboday says that. Also, countries like Spain didn’t have any colonial history in the Middle East and very little in Africa, it was in Latin America. Latin Americans immigrate to Spain seeking to become Spanish, citizens, good citizens, with positive attitudes and fit in the culture, not invade the country, and they don’t engage in such talk because they don’t have sectarian hatred. Your beef is that European Christians and atheists engaged in colonialism in the past, but you have no similar equal beef with the Turkish Muslim history of doing it. That shows a kind of hypocrisy. I mean the Latinos don’t like the Spanish colonialism, but they come to Spain with a good attitude. They don’t blame Spaniards of 2023 for what happened in 1523. That would be like me saying you should be in prison if your great-grandfather was in prison. No, just because your ancestor was a criminal doesn’t make you one. Turks of 2023 are not responsible for what Turks did in Syria or Lebanon to Druze or Alawites long ago. They can only answer for what they do today.
I think the world is facing a lot of challenges. We have things like global warm/climate change. We are facing more and more heat waves and flooding. The countries with the best technologies to deal with that are the developed countries of Japan, China, South Korea, the US, and Western Europe. Many of them, include some of the East Asian ones, have had a colonial history. Egyptians want to benefit from European and Chinese expertise to increase solar power in Egypt and benefit. You basically want to sink the ship for everybody because you hate some of the passengers based on what their great-grandparents did. Remember, black Africans and Slavic Europeans could think the same thing about Arabs and Turks who enslaved their ancestors, but we are not at fault over what our great-great-great grandparents did. Are we? Are you? Based on your own logic, you are not innocent, either.
Comment: Inevitably, it seems, being very well informed on one issue comes together in a packet with ignorance on another. W.H.
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