Post by Wayne Hall on Jan 13, 2015 22:27:08 GMT -5
To: Hellenic American Democratic Association
Subject: Charlie Hebdo, the ongoing false flag operation to distract attention from the renewed attack being prepared on Eastern Ukraine
I am in the early stages of thinking out how there could be an adequate analysis of Democratic Imperialism from Antiquity to the Present. The introduction to Gogo Kourlikoudi’s history of Aegina is a good starting point for discussion and has been translated into English now.
Another way of describing elitism is leadership. Something conspicuously lacking in Western Europe during the continuing Charlie Hebdo false flag operation, designed to distract from the new attack being prepared in Eastern Ukraine.
vineyardsaker.blogspot.gr/2015/01/i-am-not-charlie.html
or if that has been hacked
www.informationclearinghouse.info/article40651.htm#.VLF_OjiIS4c.gmail
Leadership is being provided by Saker. The alternative 2-way information network. Admittedly, it is now becoming less two-way, because of the pressure it is under.
vineyardsaker.blogspot.gr/
W.
Karen Lee put forward the idea that it is elitist to imagine that "my" 2-way information networks are any more accurate than what others see on TV.
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 7:41 PM
To: Hellenic American Democratic Association
I wouldn’t like to be participating in “assemblies” set up on the initiative of a governing patry.
I would like such assemblies to exist, and to be competing at every level with the party-political logic of representative democracy. In regular, say five yearly, referenda. There should not be referenda on other subjects, for the reasons Karen indicates.
Democracy centres on the idea of citizens being equal. But what equality can there be between people who believe what they see on television and people who acquire information through their own two-way information networks?
W.
From: Eleni Tsigante
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:38 AM
To: Hellenic American Democratic Association
Subject: Re: The value of Elections, Political Parties?
In the case of SYRIZA's proposed vetos, I'm sure the existing provisions - ballot box at schools - would suffice for Greeks anxious to express their preference. No need to invent new provision. In fact probably more dangerous (and less democratic) to invent something new.
On 12 January 2015 at 18:10, Karen Lee wrote:
(I’m posting this response with the link)
This idea is actually quite good, I think. The terms are broad, but they are ‘invitational’ rather than ‘conclusional.’ They open and invite discussion, and possibly some application to ‘actual problems’.
For instance, I’d like to see Bernie Sanders respond to the one on government/democratic structures. It’s one thing to propose ‘assemblies’ where decisions might be taken. It’s another to figure out how those decisions are translated into (in Sanders’ case) American law. Would he embrace assemblies (yes, certainly in the informal structure)? How would he integrate them into existing functions (principally referendum and initiative)? Would he leap at a new idea or, if integrating, be accused of ‘protecting the old’?
It’s an interesting question here, because US law at all levels provides for ‘assembly’ decisions (as above, referendum and initiative). The problem with current use of these functions lies in a) the injection of massive money into decision making and b) the lack of understanding and/or energy among voters.
We saw the first part of the problem clearly in 2012 (state) ballot measures demanding GMO labelling. These were defeated in two western states, due both to negative ads funded by biochem giants and grocery assns AND to the critique of compromised positions some of the proponents opened themselves to. On the other hand, something changed in 2014, and a couple of GMO laws passed as did medical marijuana laws. Again, massive money was thrown in, but activists had regrouped to educate and energize voters.
(Reiterate) I don’t think the problem is necessarily with the legal framework itself or ‘throwing all the rascals out’, so much as with the drumbeat of denial, defeatism, or … whatever, that discourages people from actively participating (voting at polls, or participating in special townhalls in NE, caucuses, local city council decisions, etc.) If we vote and ignore the after-action, it’s the same as curling up under a tree in Zuccotti Park and having a snooze.
I note in the SYRIZA programme (Thessaloniki) that they propose initiative ‘assemblies’ that would be binding as well as ‘veto’ votes on Vouli actions. Presumably, the gov’t would not fall, but some hare-brained action, such as taxing you on next year’s not yet earned income might get enough people out to veto it. The programme in English doesn’t detail exactly how this would work. And it might be cumbersome for every vote to be put to the public (how, polls? Electronically? Interactive TV votes?), but, for example, there could be a grace period after a vote during which enough people could demand a direct vote on the matter and reverse a really bad one.
So, I think this article is a fine start. It would be a valuable exercise to play ‘what if’ and add some meat on the bones. See what the animal looks like.
From: Eleni Tsigante
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2015 12:35 PM
To: Hellenic American Democratic Association
Subject: The value of Elections, Political Parties?
www.telesurtv.net/english/opinion/Elections-Political-Parties-20150109-0036.html
A think piece aimed at anti-political Latin American voters, but widely applicable.
Subject: Charlie Hebdo, the ongoing false flag operation to distract attention from the renewed attack being prepared on Eastern Ukraine
I am in the early stages of thinking out how there could be an adequate analysis of Democratic Imperialism from Antiquity to the Present. The introduction to Gogo Kourlikoudi’s history of Aegina is a good starting point for discussion and has been translated into English now.
Another way of describing elitism is leadership. Something conspicuously lacking in Western Europe during the continuing Charlie Hebdo false flag operation, designed to distract from the new attack being prepared in Eastern Ukraine.
vineyardsaker.blogspot.gr/2015/01/i-am-not-charlie.html
or if that has been hacked
www.informationclearinghouse.info/article40651.htm#.VLF_OjiIS4c.gmail
Leadership is being provided by Saker. The alternative 2-way information network. Admittedly, it is now becoming less two-way, because of the pressure it is under.
vineyardsaker.blogspot.gr/
W.
Karen Lee put forward the idea that it is elitist to imagine that "my" 2-way information networks are any more accurate than what others see on TV.
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 7:41 PM
To: Hellenic American Democratic Association
I wouldn’t like to be participating in “assemblies” set up on the initiative of a governing patry.
I would like such assemblies to exist, and to be competing at every level with the party-political logic of representative democracy. In regular, say five yearly, referenda. There should not be referenda on other subjects, for the reasons Karen indicates.
Democracy centres on the idea of citizens being equal. But what equality can there be between people who believe what they see on television and people who acquire information through their own two-way information networks?
W.
From: Eleni Tsigante
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 9:38 AM
To: Hellenic American Democratic Association
Subject: Re: The value of Elections, Political Parties?
In the case of SYRIZA's proposed vetos, I'm sure the existing provisions - ballot box at schools - would suffice for Greeks anxious to express their preference. No need to invent new provision. In fact probably more dangerous (and less democratic) to invent something new.
On 12 January 2015 at 18:10, Karen Lee wrote:
(I’m posting this response with the link)
This idea is actually quite good, I think. The terms are broad, but they are ‘invitational’ rather than ‘conclusional.’ They open and invite discussion, and possibly some application to ‘actual problems’.
For instance, I’d like to see Bernie Sanders respond to the one on government/democratic structures. It’s one thing to propose ‘assemblies’ where decisions might be taken. It’s another to figure out how those decisions are translated into (in Sanders’ case) American law. Would he embrace assemblies (yes, certainly in the informal structure)? How would he integrate them into existing functions (principally referendum and initiative)? Would he leap at a new idea or, if integrating, be accused of ‘protecting the old’?
It’s an interesting question here, because US law at all levels provides for ‘assembly’ decisions (as above, referendum and initiative). The problem with current use of these functions lies in a) the injection of massive money into decision making and b) the lack of understanding and/or energy among voters.
We saw the first part of the problem clearly in 2012 (state) ballot measures demanding GMO labelling. These were defeated in two western states, due both to negative ads funded by biochem giants and grocery assns AND to the critique of compromised positions some of the proponents opened themselves to. On the other hand, something changed in 2014, and a couple of GMO laws passed as did medical marijuana laws. Again, massive money was thrown in, but activists had regrouped to educate and energize voters.
(Reiterate) I don’t think the problem is necessarily with the legal framework itself or ‘throwing all the rascals out’, so much as with the drumbeat of denial, defeatism, or … whatever, that discourages people from actively participating (voting at polls, or participating in special townhalls in NE, caucuses, local city council decisions, etc.) If we vote and ignore the after-action, it’s the same as curling up under a tree in Zuccotti Park and having a snooze.
I note in the SYRIZA programme (Thessaloniki) that they propose initiative ‘assemblies’ that would be binding as well as ‘veto’ votes on Vouli actions. Presumably, the gov’t would not fall, but some hare-brained action, such as taxing you on next year’s not yet earned income might get enough people out to veto it. The programme in English doesn’t detail exactly how this would work. And it might be cumbersome for every vote to be put to the public (how, polls? Electronically? Interactive TV votes?), but, for example, there could be a grace period after a vote during which enough people could demand a direct vote on the matter and reverse a really bad one.
So, I think this article is a fine start. It would be a valuable exercise to play ‘what if’ and add some meat on the bones. See what the animal looks like.
From: Eleni Tsigante
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2015 12:35 PM
To: Hellenic American Democratic Association
Subject: The value of Elections, Political Parties?
www.telesurtv.net/english/opinion/Elections-Political-Parties-20150109-0036.html
A think piece aimed at anti-political Latin American voters, but widely applicable.