Post by Wayne Hall on Jun 22, 2008 1:49:08 GMT -5
Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2008 1:21 AM
Subject: Re: Annamaria Artner: A voice from Eastern Europe
Dear Wayne Hall ,
in Hungarian there is a saying for those who cannot see the wider relationships or cannot imagine that there are things over his/her horizon:
"can't see the wood for the tree"
***...for the trees. This saying exists in English also.***
1. You have not enough information about how people lived the systemic change in Hungary, in all over Eastern Europe. It is far not true, that they thing it was "LIBERATION and EMANCIPATION." More and more people think of it with nostalgia , or at least as something which was better, than this capitalism
***The political milieu in which you are working, and to whom you were speaking when you made your address, had the view that it was liberation.****
2. You do not understand how many "left" there is in Eastern Europe and even on the West. The political left was the engine of the neoliberal change, while the real or "social" left became very weak. This latter also does not evaluate systemic change like you.
***I do not disagree with your analysis. I disagree with your stance of pessimism, which is unbecoming for the political currents with which we are associated. We wanted change. We got change.***
3. The systemic change is welcome by those who are on the happier end of the society, among them a good part of the intelligentsia. The intelligentsia which have always been ready to serve the actual power...
****Yes.***
4. The disappointment of the masses in this "brave new world" leads to the the rising sympathy towards the demagogue extreme right and makes fascist tendencies to raise - as it happened in the Weimarian republic of Germany between 1919-33.
***It is natural that people will drift towards currents which appear self-confident and militant rather than pessimistic and self-questioning.***
5. The problems of environmental damages are consequences of the system of society, hence can not be remedied without changing the reasons
6. To attack a technology means the misunderstanding of the nature of technology. For what, how, when etc. the technology is use are depend only on the people, living in certain structure of the society. if the technology is serving the profit will be used other than when it is for the satisfaction og people's need.
***If the technology in question is nuclear technology, then we are in disagreement here. Nuclear technology represents a deadend. It is unviable economically as well as environmentally destructive and intrinsically undemocratic. It should be abandoned.****
7. I am against the war, against weapons, and for the peace, for the disarmament etc. But I am not against any achievement of the science. To reject knife because Guillotin engineered an executing machine would be a mistake. In Hungary cc 40 percent of the energy consumption is produced by atomic energy plant. Untill there is not a similarly powerful alternative I will not oppose it.
***This puts you in the same category as Dr. Slaus of Croatia, who is on this list. He participated in the rally at Saintes and spoke in the main sessions and some workshops. He is committed to nuclear disarmament and to the Capodistrias-Spinelli initiative, on which subject we have invited him to be a speaker at a function organized by the council of Aigina in Greece and tentatively programmed for November.***
On the other hand atomic energy plans can be built almost totally safety. Why not demanding this?
***Those of us who are opposed to them are not of the view that they can be built safely.However, rather than argue about atomic power plants at this point, let us focus on what we have in common, particularly now that following the Irish "NO" to the Treaty of Lisbon we are entering into a new political phase in Europe.
Perhaps you will be interested in this description of a meeting we had last Sunday here in Aigina, which shows how the two viewpoints in this mailing, (i.e. the disagreement over nuclear power stations) coexist even in our little ATTAC group here, but do not detract from the dynamism we are deriving from focusing on our constitutional proposals:
acdn.france.free.fr/spip/breve.php3?id_breve=647&lang=en
What you could do, and get your Hungarian friends to do who do not wish to campaign against nuclear power stations, would be to work for rehabilitation of Spinelli's 1984 Draft Treaty Establishing the European Union
www.spinellisfootsteps.info/treaty/
This will bring you into alliance with the section of our movement here that shares your view of nuclear power stations and will provide a way our of the paralysis and pessimism of which you are complaining and from which you yourself also appear to suffer.***
(Sorry for my late answer, but I do not have much time for e-mail-debates.)
***I am pleased that you have answered, and in the case of this particular debate I believe that the investment of time is justified. ***
Regards
annamaria
Best wishes,
Wayne
Subject: Re: Annamaria Artner: A voice from Eastern Europe
Dear Wayne Hall ,
in Hungarian there is a saying for those who cannot see the wider relationships or cannot imagine that there are things over his/her horizon:
"can't see the wood for the tree"
***...for the trees. This saying exists in English also.***
1. You have not enough information about how people lived the systemic change in Hungary, in all over Eastern Europe. It is far not true, that they thing it was "LIBERATION and EMANCIPATION." More and more people think of it with nostalgia , or at least as something which was better, than this capitalism
***The political milieu in which you are working, and to whom you were speaking when you made your address, had the view that it was liberation.****
2. You do not understand how many "left" there is in Eastern Europe and even on the West. The political left was the engine of the neoliberal change, while the real or "social" left became very weak. This latter also does not evaluate systemic change like you.
***I do not disagree with your analysis. I disagree with your stance of pessimism, which is unbecoming for the political currents with which we are associated. We wanted change. We got change.***
3. The systemic change is welcome by those who are on the happier end of the society, among them a good part of the intelligentsia. The intelligentsia which have always been ready to serve the actual power...
****Yes.***
4. The disappointment of the masses in this "brave new world" leads to the the rising sympathy towards the demagogue extreme right and makes fascist tendencies to raise - as it happened in the Weimarian republic of Germany between 1919-33.
***It is natural that people will drift towards currents which appear self-confident and militant rather than pessimistic and self-questioning.***
5. The problems of environmental damages are consequences of the system of society, hence can not be remedied without changing the reasons
6. To attack a technology means the misunderstanding of the nature of technology. For what, how, when etc. the technology is use are depend only on the people, living in certain structure of the society. if the technology is serving the profit will be used other than when it is for the satisfaction og people's need.
***If the technology in question is nuclear technology, then we are in disagreement here. Nuclear technology represents a deadend. It is unviable economically as well as environmentally destructive and intrinsically undemocratic. It should be abandoned.****
7. I am against the war, against weapons, and for the peace, for the disarmament etc. But I am not against any achievement of the science. To reject knife because Guillotin engineered an executing machine would be a mistake. In Hungary cc 40 percent of the energy consumption is produced by atomic energy plant. Untill there is not a similarly powerful alternative I will not oppose it.
***This puts you in the same category as Dr. Slaus of Croatia, who is on this list. He participated in the rally at Saintes and spoke in the main sessions and some workshops. He is committed to nuclear disarmament and to the Capodistrias-Spinelli initiative, on which subject we have invited him to be a speaker at a function organized by the council of Aigina in Greece and tentatively programmed for November.***
On the other hand atomic energy plans can be built almost totally safety. Why not demanding this?
***Those of us who are opposed to them are not of the view that they can be built safely.However, rather than argue about atomic power plants at this point, let us focus on what we have in common, particularly now that following the Irish "NO" to the Treaty of Lisbon we are entering into a new political phase in Europe.
Perhaps you will be interested in this description of a meeting we had last Sunday here in Aigina, which shows how the two viewpoints in this mailing, (i.e. the disagreement over nuclear power stations) coexist even in our little ATTAC group here, but do not detract from the dynamism we are deriving from focusing on our constitutional proposals:
acdn.france.free.fr/spip/breve.php3?id_breve=647&lang=en
What you could do, and get your Hungarian friends to do who do not wish to campaign against nuclear power stations, would be to work for rehabilitation of Spinelli's 1984 Draft Treaty Establishing the European Union
www.spinellisfootsteps.info/treaty/
This will bring you into alliance with the section of our movement here that shares your view of nuclear power stations and will provide a way our of the paralysis and pessimism of which you are complaining and from which you yourself also appear to suffer.***
(Sorry for my late answer, but I do not have much time for e-mail-debates.)
***I am pleased that you have answered, and in the case of this particular debate I believe that the investment of time is justified. ***
Regards
annamaria
Best wishes,
Wayne